Kyung-wha Kang on quiet diplomacy

Kyung wha-kang (00:00) So Kim Jong Un decided to take all of us to Mount Paektu in the northern tip of the peninsula. 30 some white SUVs making their way up to Mount Paektu. And at the top, we get off the most extraordinary, beautiful day. We were told it's only one or two days a year that you get such a clear weather on top of that mountain. But we had that. So we felt truly we were blessed. And the two, Kim Jong Un, my President, our official delegations, the security people, the journalist we all felt like little kids out on a picnic. There was no you or me or north and south. We took lots of pictures and had a great time. Adam Cooper (00:48) Welcome to the Mediator's Studio, a podcast about Peacemakers, bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper. My guest today is a South Korean career diplomat who started as a senior presidential translator and later became a country's Foreign Minister, a post she held from 2017 to 2021. As a UN official, she served as Deputy Emergency Relief Coordinator and Assistant Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs, as well as Deputy High Commissioner for Human Rights. She is now the President and CEO of the Asia Society. Kyung-wha Kang, welcome to the Mediator's Studio. Kyung wha-kang (01:26) Thank you very much. Thank you for having me, Adam. Adam Cooper (01:32) I'd like to begin with your early formative years that brought you into the world of peacemaking. Just to give our listeners some background, the Second World War ended with the Korean Peninsula divided between a Soviet and China-backed north and with America backing the South. You are born in the South in 1955, just two years after the amstice that should have concluded the Korean War. But the peninsula is divided, and from the very start, your life reflects that geopolitical reality, your father from the North, your mother from the South. Before we get into how that influenced you, can you just explain how that family situation came to be? Kyung wha-kang (02:10) My father was one of hundreds and thousands of North Koreans who fled to the South just before or during the war times. And so he had this lifelong longing for a home, longing for something beyond my immediate surrounding was my mentality from the early start. Adam Cooper (02:28) And let's talk about your father. Did he inspire the professional path that you took? I understand he was a broadcast journalist, and you also had a stint in journalism. Kyung wha-kang (02:36) Yes, he was the first-generation broadcaster in South Korea, radio, black and white TV, colour TV. And at one point, he was called our Walter Cronkite of South Korea because he anchored the Daily Evening News. That was more understanding from an early age what fame meant and how uncomfortable that was, in fact, for the family to to live up to that fame when, in fact, my father, at the end of the day, was a government employee at the time with government pay that wasn't sufficient to match the fame. So my mother struggled, and I always thought, I don't want any job with the fame coming with it, and here I am. But he always approached broadcasting as a public service. And I think that sense of public service rubbed off on me. And I had a stint in broadcasting in a small part, in a way, with Radio Korea International which broadcast Korean information for 30 minutes to various parts of the world where English was spoken. But then I switched to academia, wanting to learn more about mass media, and ultimately ended up in public service. But this idea of public service as a lifelong commitment was something that I learned from my father more through the way he's handled these situations of decision making. Kyung wha-kang (03:54) And I think I've stayed that way for my whole life. Adam Cooper (03:57) And you went away and studied in the US and on returning home, you soon came up against systemic sexism in South Korea. You applied for various academic jobs, but the only thing available to women in those days was subjects as home economics, nursing. But you landed a job assisting the speaker of the National Parliament on global issues in the field of human rights and women's advancement. And in 1995, you serve as the Spokeswoman of the Korean Women's NGO Committee, the Fourth World Conference on Women, held in Beijing, which gives you your first experience. Related to the UN and negotiations. Yes. Tell me about that. Kyung wha-kang (04:33) It was such an eye opener to be in Beijing to realise that UN is not some remote entity sitting in New York or Geneva in conference rooms, but that they were issues pertinent to my life, that the gender discrimination and sexism that affected my daily life were issues that the UN was dealing. And to be among thousands of other women activists, not in the former government meeting, but in the NGO forum, was truly a life-changing moment for me. And I came back from that experience thinking, I would someday like to be able to work at the UN. Adam Cooper (05:15) It sounds like it planted a seed. Absolutely. You would later follow up on. And also, I understand that you were trying to manage quite a diverse coalition within the Women's Committee and having to arbitrate between them. Is that your first negotiation between groups? Kyung wha-kang (05:31) Yes, there were two strands of women's movement in Korea, the more traditional establishment, and there was the more non-traditional, more militaristic, more defiant movement. But we went together. We said, Let's go with a single voice. I think it was like 98 various women's organisations in that NGO forum speaking with the same voice. And I was the spokesman for the whole of the 98 organisations. So coordinating among them and getting the right messaging to put out there on a daily basis was quite a juggle because everybody had their different views. But I think because we were all committed to this issue at the end of the day, we didn't disagree on a fundamental importance of the issue, but how to present it. So that was an extraordinary experience. Adam Cooper (06:25) I'd like to ask you, because your next big job is Senior Advisor and Principal Speechwriter to the Foreign Minister and Principal Interpreter to the President. Yes. And while in that job, you spend a huge amount of time doing simultaneous translations for President Kim Dae-jung, which gives you a ringside seat. Absolutely. On conflict resolution of all kinds. And in 1999, you're with the President in New Zealand at a summit meeting of APEC, the Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation. And as APEC meets, separatist violence in the Indonesian province of East Timor is erupting. But because it's an economics meeting, there's reluctance to get involved in discussions about this huge regional security issue. And specifically, there's reluctance to discussing mandating an international peacekeeping force, which is what many were demanding. And you're there at the official dinner as President Kim's translator, and he really wanted to address this issue of East Timor. So take me to that moment in the grand banqueting hall. What was going on? Kyung wha-kang (07:28) was Asia Pacific Economic Cooperation Forum, very much focused on economic issues, and it traditionally was that way. But when this happened, President Kim Dae-jung, was of the view that we are leaders of this region, and there's a big fire erupting in our region. For us to meet and not say anything about this, we would be not fulfilling our duties. In the APEC former meeting, he made a strong push that we needed to have a statement or intervene to bring the situation in East Timor to a halt. I think other leaders were not too happy that he was taking the forum to a very political issue of conflict resolution. And so there was no agreement in the our meeting. But at the dinner that evening, there are hundreds in this room, not just of presidents, but their whole delegations. And I was sitting behind my president. There was so much activity in the room behind him because he had planted the seeds for that lively discussion. Should we or shouldn't we? And I think everybody felt that, Yeah, we should. So President Clinton was there. At the end of that evening, he called President Habibie of Indonesia at the time. Kyung wha-kang (08:44) And said, You need to let international forces come in and stabilise the situation. But we didn't know that evening that President Clinton had called him. But the next morning, President Habibie comes out makes a public statement that basically seeds the point. Adam Cooper (09:03) It must have been a moment where you saw the power of what diplomacy can achieve, up front, and the power of a conversation. Kyung wha-kang (09:09) Power of a conversation and power of the right approach. And so years later, the Indonesia accepted international forces led by the Australians. Korea joined. It wasn't a UN peacekeeping force. It was an international force endorsed by the United Nations. Two years later, I think it was Ramos Horta, who was their first independent East Timor's foreign minister. He went to see President Clinton, and he thanked him for intervening, making that call to President Habibie at that time. Mr. Clinton said to him, said, Don't thank me. Go thank President Kim Dae-jung, because he was the one who made that strong point that then rallied the crowd and that he made that intervention. Adam Cooper (09:54) It's a lesson in courageous diplomacy. And you worked with President Kim on the Sunshine Policy, as it was called, the idea of engagement with North Korea, DPRK. He was later awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for these efforts. Could you explain how the Sunshine Policy came about for a listener who might not know the region well, and why it was a centrepiece of inter-Korean diplomacy under Kim Dae-jung? Kyung wha-kang (10:18) Korea is divided, but there is a strong sense that this division is a historical aberration. Somehow, the country needs to get back together as one. And that's a strong national drive, although there are also very strong anti-communist element in South Korea. They say, never, never. We don't want to deal with the North Koreans. But Kim Dae-jung was of the view that we needed to approach them first. And this idea of sunshine is that you undress a heavily-coated man, not by forcing him to take it off, but just shining a lot of sunshine so that he feels warm and he takes it off. That was the idea of sunshine, that you nudge an and create the circumstances that he would voluntarily take off that coat. North Koreans didn't like it because they felt like, you're forcing us to do this. Anyway, so the name changed to Engagement, but that was the idea. You do it with engagement, dialogue, support. So he had this summit meeting in Pyongyang with Kim Jong-il, the current leader's father, and that won him the Nobel Peace Prize in the year 2000. Adam Cooper (11:27) However, at the time, the US President George Bush Jr. Was very sceptical of the Sunshine policy. Kyung wha-kang (11:34) He was elected at the end of 2000. So he takes office in 2001. Kim Dae-jung is eager to go to Washington and convince the new President of the wisdom of this Policy. So he was the first foreign President that President George W. Bush met in the White House. And you were in the room. I was in the room, and it was disaster because basically, he threw cold water on the whole idea of engagement with this terrible dictator as George W. Bush made him to be. But at the end, you have to talk. But I think the Sunshine Policy just never recovered after that initial encounter with George W. Bush. So in the year 2000, year of the presidential election, Madeleine Albright went to North Korea at the invitation of Kim Jong-il, and he had invited Clinton. But Clinton very much felt that his last days was better spent negotiating the Middle East peace process in Washington DC, in Camp David. So Madeleine ultimately went, and Kim Jong-il took her to a big stadium, the very famous North Korean Mass Card demonstrations. Thousands of people perfectly time to create these huge images. And when they entered, they created an image of a missile taking off. Kyung wha-kang (12:55) And Kim Jong-il told Madeleine, that will be the last missile launch, you will see. Meaning that he's agreeing to stop the missile's provocations. I think if we got Kim Jong-il to that point on the missiles, this was the Parry process. But then after Bush's election, that all goes down the drain. What a missed opportunity. Adam Cooper (13:27) After this this first-hand experience at the side of President Kim and after the Korean Foreign Ministry and in the UN, you were appointed as South Korea's Foreign Minister in June 2017. Both you and your President, Moon Jae-in, make considerable diplomatic efforts to get leaders from the north and South of the Peninsula together in summits. This resulted in three inter-Korean presidential summits in 2018. This diplomatic activity was incredibly urgent, as Kim Jong Un went on the record to say that North Korea was in the final stages of developing long-range guided missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. So take me to the start of 2018, before all these meetings. It's marked by the Winter Olympics, organised in South Korea. You decide to use this event to engage Pyongyang. How did that creative diplomacy work? Kyung wha-kang (14:18) We were in 2017 to the very late months of 2017, North Korea continues to grow missiles almost on a daily basis. But even so, So we worked through people who had direct access to North Korea, governments that has ambassadors in North Korea, to tell the point to the North Koreans that they have to come to the Olympics. Adam Cooper (14:43) So that's the message through back channels? Kyung wha-kang (14:45) Because there was no channel between South and North Korea. I think I can say that Sweden was extremely helpful. Margot Wallström was my Swedish counterpart at that point, so she and I had many meetings, and then the Swiss have many meetings with the North Koreans to to make the point that dialogue has to start, and the PyeongChang Olympics would be the great point to do that. So the North Korean delegation came headed by the sister of the leader with several other high ranking, and then President Moon directly engage with them to make the point that it serves nobody's interest to continue this tension and that they should directly meet. So after they came, then President Moon said, Well, Kim Jong-un, thank you for sending your special envoy. Now, let me send my envoy. So he sent our head of intelligence and the National Security Council chairman. Adam Cooper (15:39) So there's this engagement of senior officials, your president leading the way. How did you feel when you saw almost a symbolic gathering of North and South delegations participating as one delegation in the opening ceremony? Kyung wha-kang (15:53) As a Korean, I think it's always these moments of togetherness is really touching. And this is not the first time There were past sports events where the two teams did help joint teams march together. But this was because it was being held on our grounds, even more so. It was very emotional. And we formed a joint women's hockey team. Adam Cooper (16:16) And if we trace forward what happened from there, in April 2018, Kim Jong Un became the first to visit the South. Were you in the room with him and your president in some of those? Kyung wha-kang (16:26) Yes. The key discussion was just between the president and him. But the official ceremonies, the dinners and lunches were all there. At the beginning, he comes down in this big car with his security guards running with the car, and then he steps out, and we're all lined up to greet him. And And I'm as foreign minister, I'm number one in the delegations. So he sees me, and President Moon introduces me, and I shake his hand, and he says, I know you. I see you all the time on CNN. That was a bit of a shock. But he is known to be a consummate reader of Western media. Adam Cooper (17:05) That's interesting. And what was that personal chemistry like at the presidential level? Kyung wha-kang (17:10) Excellent, because President Moon, after this, said, It's just so relief to be able to speak without translation. And they had a separate meeting, and this is a lasting image from that encounter along the PyeongChang. There's a little walk through these woods and swamps, and that leads to a little alcove with a table. And the two leaders took a straw and sat down and just talked among themselves. We didn't know what they were talking about, but there was clearly a lot of personal chemistry that was forged. Then that led to Kim Jong Un having a great deal of trust in President Moon. And the indication of that was there was then that led to an announcement that there will be a US North Korea summit. So we were all excited. Singapore was going to host it. And then North Korea releases some statement on something that just really personally attacks Vice President, Pence. And President Trump said, Well, in that case, I'm not going to meet these people. So he cancelled the summit. So without announcement, President Moon goes to Panmunjom to meet with Kim Jong-un. And we didn't publicise that prior to the meeting, but after the meeting, I called Pompeo to tell him how the meeting went and how Kim and very much wanted that summit meeting with the US and Singapore. Kyung wha-kang (18:33) And so that happened. Adam Cooper (18:34) I want to ask you about you becoming the first South Korean foreign minister to visit the capital of North Korea, Pyongyang, which you do as part of a presidential delegation in September 2018. Before we get onto the diplomacy and the politics, what was it like for you, emotionally, visiting the land where your father had come from? What did you see in the streets? And what did you say to your fellow Koreans in the North? Kyung wha-kang (18:58) At one level, it was very familiar. It wasn't a foreign country, but you don't get to see ordinary people on the street. It's all very orchestrated. We're put in a guest house with staff that are completely trained. We're not allowed to go outside the guest compound. When we're riding in the motor car, the streets are all lined up with mobilised crowds that are waving fake flowers and the national flags of the two countries. So no direct encounter with everyday people. But once you're out of the city perimeter, and there's a small section from the city to the airport, basically country road, you have the car roads, and on the side, you have the pedestrian walks. Not many people, but there are people. And the incredible thing was that you had people reading as they were walking. It's, again, everyday course. They're used to it, so they're doing this habitually, but they're reading. So that desire, that eagerness, that earnest for education is exactly the same as South Koreans. So I was sitting next to the Minister of Culture, who was also part of the delegation, and he said, Oh, we did exactly the same when we were going to school. Adam Cooper (20:11) And did you feel like you were somehow also connecting with your father's history and given how much you loved and respected him, feeling that you were somehow coming full circle? Yeah. Kyung wha-kang (20:23) He was from Pyongyang. By that time, he had passed away. I wish he had lived so that I can tell him the story of visiting Pyongyang. But the lasting image from Pyongyang was that everyday desire to improve, and then you can only do that through education and reading is part of that. The other lasting image from the issues themselves was the key meeting was between the President and then Kim Jong Un and only one advisor. I think the meeting must have lasted three, four hours. So we're all anxious waiting outside. How is this going? And after the President's coming down, completely drained. And we thought, My God, this must have been failure. The announcement afterwards, in fact, Kim Jong Un voiced those terms in his own voice that he has committed. That was a big, big deal. Adam Cooper (21:16) And is that the point at which afterwards, you all decided to visit Mount Paektu? Yes. Kyung wha-kang (21:21) So everybody's feeling like we've achieved the world in a complete celebration mode. And so Kim Jong-un We decided to take all of us to Mount Paektu in the northern tip of the peninsula, and you had to fly. So we go to land at Samjiyon airport. It's a very slow climb on a winding road like this. 30-some white SUVs making their way up to Mount Paektu. And at the top, we get off, and we were looking down at the Changjin Lake, the most extraordinary, beautiful day. And we were told It's only one or two days a year that you get such a clear weather on top of that mountain. But we had that. So we felt truly we were blessed. And the two, Kim Jong-Un, my President, our official delegations, the security people, the journalists, we all felt like little kids out on a picnic. There was no you or me or north and south. We took lots of pictures and had a great time. We were literally on top of the world. Mount Paektu is our spiritual home for the whole of the Korean people, and to have the blessing of that beautiful day. Kyung wha-kang (22:35) So we thought it's a good signal that we would get to the end of this process, but we know what happened after in Hanoi. Adam Cooper (22:43) And I want to ask you about that because you described that particularly hopeful moment. And I want to ask about President Trump's interventions. This was his first time as President. He went to the north and also met Kim Jong Un in Singapore. And then in 2019, there's a follow-up meeting in Hanoi, in Vietnam. But talks break down, and Kim Jong Un later announces that weapons testing will resume. So I realise that President Trump is now in his second term, one has to be somewhat diplomatic. But what was your take on what he brought as a pacemaker on the Korean Peninsula? Kyung wha-kang (23:17) A very unconventional approach, for sure. Traditionally, to have a summit meeting, you work your way up through lower levels, but there was none of that. And that was refreshing that he would just start at that level and that will would make its way down. But the problem was that will didn't make its way down. In fact, key advisors around him weren't bought into this idea of engagement with North Korea, Bolton, Mr. Pompeo also. The President's will alone doesn't deliver. You can have these big shows, but the substance wasn't there, wasn't prepared. And so when Kim Kim Jong Un came with the proposal that, yes, I would eliminate all of Yongbyon, their biggest nuclear facility. Big deal. But that wasn't enough from the American side for political reasons, I think. I mean, getting rid of Yongbyon is a big, big deal. This is their only leverage. On the part of Kim Jong Un, he also didn't have a plan B. So when he came and was sure that this would be a great deal for both sides, and when that didn't work, it broke down. No follow-up. Adam Cooper (24:33) I can hear the frustration and disappointment in your voice about how that opportunity wasn't seized at that time. And when you saw what was happening in Hanoi, how did you feel? Kyung wha-kang (24:45) Absolutely devastated. I was away, but I was getting briefed by our delegation in Hanoi who were talking to the American delegation. And so it broke down. And then I had to convey that to the President, who was also prepared to celebrate. So it was devastating. Adam Cooper (25:03) And if one were to reflect on the challenges at that time, the mistakes that were perhaps made, and look at the Korean Peninsula today, do you think that there's a way to harness the unconventional approach of President Trump when it comes to current politics? Kyung wha-kang (25:22) Again, unless it is supported by the technical expertise, it could end up with a deal that is not that good, especially for South Korea. We want a complete deal, not just the North Korea stopping intercontinental ballistic missiles because that's a threat to the Americans. So a half a deal would be something that the South Koreans would need to guard very much against. But I think North Korea, at this point, is not in a hurry to come back to the table. Adam Cooper (25:50) And though you've worked all over the world, and as CEO of the Asia Society today, you've got a broad geographical remit, of course, you always care deeply about your homeland. Do you think you'll see peace on the Korean Peninsula in your lifetime? Kyung wha-kang (26:06) Maybe not an active peace, but cold peace. Unification is a dream, but I think we at least could aim for peaceful coexistence with the two sides, having lots of exchanges, people free to come and go, businesses, investments. That would be the goal. But at the current phase, just to manage things so that there's no hostile outbreak along the DMZ, which is very heavily mined. So if we could keep things calm, keep the tension down, stop any accidental clashes happening, I think that's what the new government should aim for at this point. And then, meanwhile, constantly send the message to the North Koreans that we want dialogue. We want peace. We want peaceful coexistence. Adam Cooper (27:02) I want to draw on some of these reflections that you're having about peace-making and talk a little bit about them in the context of your work at the UN. Because worked in many different countries and in your senior roles. But I'd like to ask you in particular about your work in the Democratic Republic of Congo, the DRC. Kyung wha-kang (27:23) Heartbroken. Adam Cooper (27:23) Because you went both in your role as Deputy High Commission for Human Rights and as Deputy Head of the Office for the Coordination of humanitarian affairs. The first time you went against a background of decades of civil war, you've been mandated by the UN Human Rights Council to report on the issue of sexual violence that had become widespread amid a ruthless armed conflict. Why was it heartbreaking? Kyung wha-kang (27:46) Because in 2000, Security Council recognises that women, peace, and security resolution, that women are not just victims, but an active participant in peace processes and all aspects of the conflicts that affect women should be actively dealt with. And that gave rise to this attention on these terrible sexual violence that were being used as tools in conflict situation. And there were so terrible things happening in the DRC. So we thought, we have to do something. We need to just go and give these victims a voice. And so we created a panel led by me, Denis Mukwege, the famous doctor of Panzi Hospital, the little sanctuary of these victims, and Elisabeth Rehn, the former defence minister of Finland and chair of the ICC's Victims Reparations Fund. So the three of us went to various locations in mostly an Eastern DRC, where there were reports. Adam Cooper (28:52) Where the violence was particularly high. Yeah. And what did those survivors of sexual violence tell you? Kyung wha-kang (28:57) All of them wanted justice in in one form or another. They wanted their dignity back, and the way to get their dignity back was to have justice that these crimes punished one way or the other. Aside from that, they wanted their kids to be schooled. We travelled to six different locations. We had to be careful because talking to us could be a risk. So we did it in a very confidential circumstances and provide a protection for them. And of course, you're indebted wanted to them for life. First of all, we went to Kinshasa, and we wanted a discussion with the government ministers to convey their message and to push government into some action. That didn't get very far. But a few years later, the government did appoint a government special envoy on sexual violence. So there was some movement there. But overall, there were court decisions. Some of these perpetrators were caught, gone through the Congolese legal system, found guilty, put in jail. The jails were shoddy, so they would escape the next day. The victims were given some amount of reparation. I don't remember that one single victim was paid that amount. Kyung wha-kang (30:14) After coming back, we did build them a boat for the women of a certain village that had seen terrible, terrible sexual violence by a river. And the women were huddling by themselves because they were stigmatised by the rest of the village. But they were also the livelihood makers. They farmed, they sold their things to the markets downstream. So we built them a boat and presented them with a boat. The women were thrilled. I don't know how that's been maintained, but the little things that we could do. So I kept going back to the DRC every opportunity. I even applied to be the Deputy Special Rep in charge of humanitarian assistance because my heart was sunken there, and I failed because my French was lacking. Adam Cooper (31:02) I want to take that theme of justice that you mentioned and ask you a broader question, not related to the DRC, specifically. Because as you know, there's quite a debate sometimes in the conflict resolution world around whether these ambitions of fulfilling justice and peace-making are sometimes intention with each other. What's your view on that? Kyung wha-kang (31:27) I think in the human rights crowd you have a very clear answer that they have to go together, that you always have to put justice from the very beginning, transitional justice, not the formal justice, but the transitional justice where you listen to the victims, but you also, in the end, compromise, forgive, and move on. The transitional justice can be managed in a way that balances those two concerns. But in the end, unless you have some amount of justice, you to leave the seats for a return to conflict, a return to the violence. Adam Cooper (32:05) I want to also ask you, as you reflect on your career, about the theme of women and inclusion, on which you're not just an advocate, but which you've exemplified within your own career. I know that you look forward to the day when the fact that you were South Korea's first female foreign minister no longer needs to be commented on. Kyung wha-kang (32:23) You're tired of that. I'm tired of that. Adam Cooper (32:25) But the reality is that those barriers to women securing top jobs in international affairs do still very much exist. And it's hard to generalise, I know, but what strengths do you think women bring to those top jobs which you wish were more widely recognised? Kyung wha-kang (32:40) I think women's leadership is more team building. It's not follow me. It's more work with me. We're part of the same team. We share the cause. I don't like to make distinction between women and men. There are great men leaders, there are great women leaders, and there's the opposite. But ultimately, it's team leadership that is, I think, the most effective in this day and age, especially with a young generation. You cannot order them around. You have to make sure they're part of the team and they have efficacy, they have agency. The difficulty of being number one is that until the number two comes, you'll always wear that label. And so I want the second women for our minister happening sooner rather than later. Adam Cooper (33:25) Yes, I imagine. And when you look at the landscape of conflict across the world, today, it's quite easy to be pessimistic. Who or what gives you hope at a time like this? Kyung wha-kang (33:38) It's hard to wake up. I read the UN news briefing every day, and it's really easy to start today depressed because good news doesn't make news, so it's all the bad news. But I have to believe that there is good news. I do a lot of college lectures, whether in Korea, whether in the US. I did one in Beijing recently. There's a sense the young generation that is free from this preconception about what countries are, what they represent. They're much more globalist, much more practical, much more selfish in a way, but also much more open about how the world needs to be run. And so I get my hope every time I speak to the young generation. Adam Cooper (34:23) Well, on that hopeful note, there we must end. Kyung wha-Kang, thank you so much for being my guest in the Mediator's Studio. Kyung wha-kang (34:29) Thank you, Adam. It's been a pleasure. Adam Cooper (34:31) That's it for this edition of the Mediator's Studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We always love to hear from you. If Kyung wha-Kang's work on inter-Korean summits and at the intersection of Peacemaking, Human Rights, and Humanitarian Action of the UN has resonated with you, please get in touch via the listener survey in the show notes on our website. Or do drop me a message on Twitter @AdamTalksPeace. The Mediator Studio is an Oslo Forum podcast brought to you by the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our Managing Editor is Christina Buchhold, and the producer is Chris Gunnes. Research for this episode was by Oscar Eschenbrenner and Eleanor Strangways. Big thanks also to Ly BuiDoung for her support. Hope you'll join me for the next edition. Until then, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye, and thank you for listening.