Manal Radwan on how words shape realities

Manal Radwan (00:00) It's the most difficult part because you don't know what to answer people who are in miserable situations. And you feel like all these meetings and all these proposals and resolutions mean very little. But we have to remind ourselves that resolutions and words on paper are not just words on paper, but they do shape realities. Adam Cooper (00:27) Welcome to The Mediator's Studio. a podcast about peacemakers, bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper. I'm at the Oslo Forum, where some of the world's leading figures in peace-making have come to discuss resolving conflicts from Iran to Sudan, Myanmar, and Ukraine. My guest today has been serving as a senior adviser to the Foreign Minister of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with the rank of Minister Plenipotentiary. She headed the negotiation team and was a key mover behind the International Initiative for the Recognition of Palestinian Statehood. She's played critical roles in Saudi Arabia's foreign policy for the past 2 decades and served in representations to the Arab League, the UN in New York, and in Washington, D.C. Dr. Manal Radwan, welcome to The Mediator's Studio. Manal Radwan (01:20) Thank you very much, Adam. It's a pleasure to be here. Adam Cooper (01:28) Let's start with the early influences that led you into the world of diplomacy, mediation, and negotiations. Your father was a diplomat serving in Türkiye, the UK, and France. Did you develop a fascination for diplomacy in your childhood, or did something else bring you to the field? Manal Radwan (01:47) Obviously, the influence of my father has been profound throughout my life, and I think I wanted from early on to do something transformative. And I figured that there are one of two ways at a very early age. I think I was in 4th grade when I was involved in this thinking about the future. And it was either to be a scientist and invent something, you know, new and creative, or to be a diplomat, because I think I saw, you know, my father and his work, and I thought it was easier for me to be a diplomat than a scientist. So that was the decision and the beginning of the motivation. But I think it was also mirroring everything that was happening in the development of Saudi Arabia and the transformation of the region as well. When I was in— very early on in school, it was the time of Camp David, believe it or not. And then, you know, that kind of developed more and more. And when I was in college, it was about Oslo and it was about this new beginning in the Middle East. And it was a consistent message that we needed to play a more active role and that there is always a possibility for peace. Adam Cooper (03:06) Yeah. And it inspired you to get involved and see how you could contribute. I want to ask about your doctoral thesis early on in your path. And you wrote about jihadist narratives, human rights, humiliation, and the politics of the other. Are there lessons from your research that somehow still resonate with your current work? Manal Radwan (03:25) Absolutely. And I think the most important element in all of this is this idea of humiliation, that I think it is very much understudied and underrepresented, especially in the field of mediation and conflict resolution. This power politics theories and realism and new realism have dominated the field and also practice. And there was a neglect to other elements that would shape choices and will make us also understand why people would resort to either violence or to choose nonviolent ways of resolving conflict. And I think the idea of humiliation and dignity was extremely important, but not very much studied and understood. Adam Cooper (04:11) I want to ask about the 7th of October, Because one of the issues you've been focused on is Palestine. And of course, the question of Palestine changed dramatically on the 7th of October, 2023. Take me back to that morning when the news first started to trickle through of the attack. Where were you? What was going through your mind? Manal Radwan (04:34) Before the 7th of October, we were trying as the Kingdom to sound the alarm. We were trying to say that, you know, the neglect of the Palestinian issue, neglect of the Palestinian suffering and the continued double standards was for us very obvious that will lead to a dramatic— Adam Cooper (04:52) Stirring up trouble for the future. Manal Radwan (04:53) Absolutely. And it will be something that will have everyone suffer and will create a lot of disturbance. And so I would have to say that it wasn't a big surprise. And if you remember, just before October 7th, in September, we launched Peace Day effort with the European Union and with Norway and the Arab League. And the idea of the Peace Day effort was exactly that, that we were trying to highlight the importance of the Palestinian plight. And we were saying that we cannot continue to ignore and we cannot force the 2 parties to come to the table. But what we can do is we can do some kind of a reverse engineering where we would show the benefit and the dividends of peace to incentivize coming back to the negotiation and coming back to the political settlement. So when October 7th happened, it was kind of a reaffirmation of, in a sad way, to tell you the truth, and in a way that, you know, this was a missed opportunity, that we could have averted this had we paid attention. Adam Cooper (06:02) And you were in your office at the time in the ministry? Manal Radwan (06:05) Yes, I was. And the first few days where nobody knew exactly what was happening, there was disbelief. There was also a high level of anxiety. And we all knew that this is not going to lead to anything positive. Of course, any attack against civilians is something that we condemn totally and will never be conducive to any kind of settlement or cannot be justified in any way. But immediately after that, coming back, it was then very difficult to go back and talk about peace and Peace Day efforts. So we talked with our European colleagues and our Norwegian partners. How can we not only stop the violence that was happening and save a very difficult situation from even becoming worse, and how do we change this very negative development into something positive and take the opportunity to draw attention again to the root cause of the issue, that this is the time now to take a stance. And this is where our work on the Global Alliance for the Implementation of the Two-State Solution started. Adam Cooper (07:25) Yes, and I want to ask you about that in more detail later on in our discussion, but before that, you know, one of the things that was happening in the backdrop at the time was that the US administration was pushing for normalizing relations between Israel and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. And after the start of the war in Gaza, Saudi leaders were very clear, reminded everyone of the Arab Peace Initiative, where Palestinian statehood is the explicit condition for normalization with Israel. Tell me about your role in that debate. Manal Radwan (07:56) This idea of normalization with Israel has always been conditioned on Palestinian statehood. And there were talks that were happening with the help and facilitation of Saudi Arabia between the Palestinians and between the Americans before October 7th. And they were actually making major progress. And this is where the crown prince said that - when he was asked about normalization - we are getting closer and closer because these breakthroughs were happening between the Palestinians and between the Americans. Of course, they were not public talks, so that part of the developments were not very visible. Adam Cooper (08:36) And did you feel at an emotional level that all of that quiet work that had been done, you know, that it was just this enormous kind of tragic missed opportunity? Manal Radwan (08:46) Absolutely. And we tried to revive that afterwards, but it was much more difficult with everything that is happening. But this is, again, also part of the incentives for us to bring this to a global forum and to establish this international partnership on the focus of the implementation of the two-state solution. Adam Cooper (09:09) Let's talk about that. I want to take you forward to the 10th of May, 2024, when the UN General Assembly overwhelmingly passes a resolution affirming that Palestine qualified for UN membership and urging the Security Council to reconsider the matter favourably. Saudi Arabia was a leading part of the coalition behind that diplomatic success, with 143 countries voting in favour despite huge American counter-pressure. What had you been doing behind the scenes to make that happen? Manal Radwan (09:40) So the majority of the countries around the world have their policy as the two-state solution is the solution. And the question was, okay, if you are saying that, then how are we going to implement it? So really not to just stop at pronouncements of the two-state solution and the importance of the two-state solution and the belief that it is the only way possible for peace in the Middle East. So this was the operating question. And the wait until there is a negotiated settlement between the two parties have proven to be a misguided approach because it only gave an opportunity for a stalemate and for more violence and for more deterioration on the possibility of Palestinians exercising their right to self-determination and for diminishing the prospect of the two-state solution. And so one of the ways in which we preserve the possibility of the two-state solution is the recognition of the Palestinian state. And it is a right. It is not something that we are giving. It's not a giveaway. And this is also extremely important because you need to give the Palestinians hope and you need to show them and to demonstrate to them that their plight is being heard and that the countries around the world are going to exercise their responsibility in that term. Manal Radwan (11:04) So this is where recognition becomes extremely important. It is also a reminder for Israelis that this is exactly the framework in which Israel itself was created. It was part of a partition plan endorsed by the United Nations. And that is the only framework for 7.5 million Palestinians and 7.5 million Israelis to peacefully coexist together. There is no other formula. Adam Cooper (11:30) So I can see the political logic that you were trying to use to make the argument in that recognition of statehood shouldn't be just an endpoint in the distance, but could be something that could spur peace if it was actioned Sooner. But I'm curious, and maybe you can give our listeners a sense of the quiet diplomacy that took place over years, Manal, to try to convince people of the need for this. And I particularly— those who may have been, I don't know, on the fence or somewhat sceptical. And without necessarily naming names, maybe you can give me an example of a situation where, you know, you managed to take someone who was— it was a difficult decision for them, and, ultimately you convinced them to, to vote in favour of this. Manal Radwan (12:14) So Oslo here is a great reminder of an important meeting that was led by my boss, Prince Faisal, Foreign Minister, and the Arab OIC Committee on Gaza. And the meeting included Norway and a number of European countries. And the discussion was, why is recognition important and all the other practical steps that we can take to preserve the two-state solution. But it is also an answer to the violence that was happening, that we need not only consume all of our diplomatic efforts to put out fires, but also to make sure that this is not going to reoccur again and again. And the fact that our objective and our drive should be on sustainable solutions and that we need to take responsibility and exercise agency and not just only wait for the US or for other important partners to bring the 2 parties together. And I remember that part of an outcome of that meeting, as it was told to us, including by His Excellency the Norwegian Foreign Minister Espen, that played a very important role in the decision of Norway to recognize a Palestinian state and to understand that the process that Oslo has put forward, which was extremely important at the time. Manal Radwan (13:39) But to wait until a negotiated settlement, until you recognize the Palestinian state, was not working. And also a number of other countries followed through. Adam Cooper (13:50) I understand that Saudi Arabia has played a very leading role in this. I want to ask about your partnership with France together, because we will also be interviewing for this podcast Anne-Claire Legendre, who was a key part of that initiative. Tell me about how you worked together and just the dynamics and how you coordinated your efforts. Manal Radwan (14:12) First of all, I have to say that I really appreciate, really commend Anne-Claire personally for her excellent leadership and diplomatic skills. And it was a pleasure to work with her on this very important file. So the obvious decision by Saudi Arabia, we were approached to co-chair the Peace Conference on the Implementation of the Two-State Solution as part of a resolution by the General Assembly. And there was a question on who would partner with Saudi Arabia on this. For us, it was obvious that it was France. France had already expressed incredible interest and put a lot of investment on the Palestinian issue. And there was The recognition issue was also something that was being discussed intensely. But it's not just the recognition. It is really putting a framework, a complete and comprehensive framework to address ending the war in Gaza at the time, but also to lead us into sustainable peace for the whole region, not just the Palestinian issue. But of course, the cornerstone is a Palestinian issue. Adam Cooper (15:26) But I'm curious, for our listeners who might not know the mechanics of international diplomacy, you know, once the decision had been taken to partner with France on this, did you divide and conquer? And it's, you will focus on certain countries and France on others. Are you doing these meetings together? Give us a sense of how the diplomacy actually unfolded, your personal role in it. Manal Radwan (15:48) There was intense negotiations and the focus was that we needed to have an outcome that is practical and that is transformative. And this was the New York Declaration. So that took a lot of negotiations between us and between France. But also we needed to include the PA and other partners to make sure that this is inclusive and that it covers all areas of concern. But more importantly, the idea also came to create working groups. And this is something that came out from discussions with our French colleagues, you know, of course, primarily Anne-Claire and myself. And then it was the— who are going to be the co-chairing of the working groups? What are the topics? Everything we have done was outcome-oriented. So it's not just open-ended working groups, but we needed to, first of all, choose who are the co-chairs of the working groups. What are the topics? Why are we choosing certain countries to lead on certain topics? And also giving them a task. This is what we want and this is the outcome that would lead. So then the working groups really contributed to an action plan, which became the annex of the New York Declaration. Adam Cooper (17:08) I can hear the drive and passion in your voice when you're describing it. And I'm curious, you know, if you— if I asked one of those Working group chairs, you know, what was Manal Radwan like? You know, how would you think that they would describe your diplomacy, your style? Manal Radwan (17:23) I think there was a balance between giving them space. Obviously, there was relevance to why they were leading on certain topics, but also making sure that the deliverables are met and making sure also that it was covering all the bases. And the most important thing that we've been always pushing is to be creative and not be limited because this current situation is at its worst, you can say, and human suffering is huge. We didn't want that to limit what is possible and to really think creative and think that the sky is the limit. Let's put everything and let's consider all the possibilities, and maybe then we can go back and shape more practical ways to get there. Adam Cooper (18:13) And to those who might be more sceptical and who would say, well, we have this resolution, but let's look at the reality of Israeli politics right now. And Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, his ministers have been very clear about saying a 2-state solution will not happen. What's your response to those people? Manal Radwan (18:34) They are saying no to 2-state solutions. I'm telling you, most of the critics have not even read the New York Declaration. Nor have they even looked at the annex. And I think just the fact that we were able to put together a framework, like I said, not only to ending the war, but to actually arrive at regional integration based on sustainable and based on a mechanism that protects the rights of everyone in the region, is an answer to people who say there is no resolution to this. conflict, or that the resolution is, you know, more occupation, genocide, more killing, more violence. And I'm afraid that there was a time where people have lost hope and they didn't really have a compass. They didn't really have a, for lack of a better word, a plan to get there. But the New York Declaration has shown that no, there is a plan and there is a way and it is practical and it is doable. And also it received international support overwhelmingly. Adam Cooper (19:41) And when we look at Gaza today, of course, there's less violence than at the peak of the war. But I don't think anyone believes that that has been fully resolved in any way. So could you explain to our listeners what Saudi Arabia is trying to do to ensure that this issue is just not left to fester further? Manal Radwan (20:01) We think that this international consensus around the New York Declaration and the fact that it had a practical framework with, of course, what was happening and with the leadership of the U.S. administration and President Trump may have also had a role in forming the 20-point peace plan, which Saudi Arabia was also coordinating with the U.S. on its formulation alongside with our other Arab and OIC partners. And also Saudi Arabia is a founding member of the Board of Peace, which is really being faced with a lot of challenges. Adam Cooper (20:42) Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of sceptical voices, Manal, as you know, where people feel it's stalled, they can't see any change on the ground. So it does maybe contribute to that sense of hopelessness. Manal Radwan (20:54) Yes. So what we need now is to do lessons learned. And I think the merging or the fusion of what the New York Declaration offers, and with the 20-point peace plan, especially the fact that it is premised on the Palestinian right to self-determination as an ultimate objective and a peaceful coexistence in the region, which is an important part of the 20-point peace plan. I think this is where we need to be at this time. Manal Radwan (21:23) And we see the role of Saudi Arabia as a founding member of the Board of Peace, and of course as a strategic partner of the United States, is to make sure that what we do is in implementation of Resolution 2803 and in full support, of course, of President Trump's leadership on this. And we need to also not undermine the fact that there is now a U.S. administration that is fully committed and completely interested in addressing the Palestinian issue and in resolving the Palestinian issue, which is something that we haven't had for a long time. And so our role is to facilitate that. Our role also now, for some time, we are focusing on Palestinian Authority's reform and we are trying to support the PA to complete its reform as also part of the 20-point peace plan to facilitate the return to Gaza. And part of it is also to make sure that there is no bifurcation between the West Bank and Gaza, and the fact that we are protecting the possibility of realization of a Palestinian state. Adam Cooper (22:34) But are there not points, Manal, where for you as a senior diplomat, feel that despite the rhetorical commitments that the US and others have made, that it's just not moving quickly enough? I mean, I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of Palestinians in Gaza who are saying, well, okay, this is where we are slightly better off than where we were before. But with those people in mind, do you not feel frustrated at points that it's not moving quicker? Manal Radwan (23:04) No, it's not only frustration. It is extremely painful. I cannot believe that we are in 2026 and in Gaza there are parents that are trying to protect the lives of their babies and children from rats, being eaten by rats. It is horrible. The humanitarian situation and the human cost is huge. Now everyone's attention has drifted away from Gaza, but the humanitarian situation is still— it's incredibly daunting on me personally and on everyone that has followed this and tried to play a constructive role or a positive role. But this is not to mean that we would give up or we would stop our efforts. It's actually to double down on what we're trying to do. Adam Cooper (23:54) Your work is often happening in these meeting rooms advising your minister. Have there been moments when you've travelled out to the field to see first-hand the situations on the ground, whether it be in Gaza or elsewhere, where you've felt that cost of war viscerally? And it's propelled you to do the diplomatic work that you are doing. Manal Radwan (24:16) It's the most difficult part because you don't know what to answer people who are in miserable situations. And you feel like all these meetings and all these papers and all of these proposals and resolutions and, you know, mean very little. But we have to remind ourselves that this needs to be consistent, persistent, and that resolutions and words on paper are not just words on paper, but they do shape realities. And we have seen that. So we cannot give up on despair. And this is the role of diplomacy. Adam Cooper (24:55) I would like to ask you now about the reopening of ties between Saudi Arabia and Iran, codified in the Beijing Agreement in March 2023. For context for our listeners, Saudi Arabia severed ties with Iran in 2016, and it's quite a journey from that point to, to an agreement. You've been working on this issue for years. Give our listeners a sense of what happened in that period, how you helped to make that agreement happen. I know many others were involved, but your, your personal role. Manal Radwan (25:26) I've been tasked by His Highness the Foreign Minister follow on the Iranian nuclear file. And this was during the Vienna talks and trying to revive JCPOA. And the idea was that one of the important shortcomings of JCPOA is that the region was not taken into consideration and was not consulted. And that was an opportunity now to correct that. And so there was a lot of intense discussions between us and between the P5+1. From that came the idea of part of why JCPOA was limited was that it didn't really address the regional aspect and the regional security aspect. It was very obvious that the nuclear agreement was quite limited in capacity to address that, so we needed another route. At the same time, the Kingdom has always offered to the Iranians many times over the path for reconciliation and for rapprochement. So this file was also dealt with different institutions within Saudi Arabia. Obviously, it was also supported by the Foreign Ministry. So the opening, when it was possible, it of course Of course, there was a very important role of mediation and facilitation by Iraq and also by Oman. And so when the possibilities presented themselves, I was part of a team that looked into what are the possibilities and what are the major important elements that would put the relationship between Saudi Arabia and Iran on the right course, not necessarily address all the issues, address all the major sources of concern, but make sure that we are on a right path to correct and to prevent an escalation and confrontation, because it has proved that any kind of a confrontation between Iran and Saudi Arabia has negative consequences, not just to the 2 countries, but to the region as a whole. Manal Radwan (27:38) And so I think the— important facilitation by China was also something that was supported by the Foreign Ministry and by His Highness. And I think it was important that China was facilitating this because it is the first time, you know, the reconciliation between Iran and Saudi Arabia was also tried many times before. But this is the first time that there is a major power that has excellent relationship with Saudi Arabia and obviously has a lot of leverage and important relationship with Iran that is facilitating this dialogue. And it was seen as some kind of a guarantor. And I think that helped very much in the rapprochement. Adam Cooper (28:27) And how did you feel then after those years of work when that agreement was signed in Beijing in March 2023? Take me to that moment. Manal Radwan (28:36) Of course, it was a major success for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, a major success for the wisdom of our leadership to prioritize peaceful and prioritize rapprochement with a country like Iran. And it opened possibilities that will even facilitate more addressing regional security. So it's not just de-escalation, but it opens possibilities for regional security architecture that is mutually beneficial to all parties in the region. Adam Cooper (29:08) And as we record this, it's early June. It's against the backdrop of a war between US, Israel, and Iran spilled into the wider region, including attacks on Saudi Arabian territory. Take me to the moment when you heard about the attack on Iran that happened for the Second time in the middle of the US-Iran nuclear talks on the 28th of February. Manal Radwan (29:32) We were following the talks that were happening between Iran and the US, and we were reassured also by the Omani mediators that there were breakthroughs happening and some indications of positive developments. And then the war happened. The position of Saudi Arabia is that we don't think that military escalation is necessarily going to resolve the outstanding issues and address the concerns, including on the nuclear, on the ballistic missiles, on the proxies, and all of the sources of tension and insecurity in the region. We played from day one The leadership, Prince Faisal, the Foreign Minister, played a very active role in facilitating our talks and discussions, using and utilizing, of course, and leveraging our very important and strategic relationship with the United States. But here also comes the utility of the open channels with Iran. Adam Cooper (30:40) Yes. Talk to me more about that, about, you know, you've kind of reopened those diplomatic ties. How are those relations in the midst of this crisis? Manal Radwan (30:48) So thank God that the rapprochement happened between Saudi Arabia and Iran, because I will say that it has been incredibly beneficial, even during very difficult times when Iran unlawfully attacked Saudi Arabia, that it was— these open channels were a way in which we have voiced, of course, our condemnation for the attacks. And also were a way in which we worked on de-escalation and to avert more confrontation between the 2 countries and sliding back into a confrontational relationship. It was also an opportunity for the Iranians to continuously reassure the Kingdom of the importance of the relationship and not wanting to escalate against the Kingdom. There are no justifications to the attacks against the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. But again, it's important to have communications with— and dialogue is extremely important. It is even more important when there is escalation and things are not going well. Adam Cooper (31:55) So I cannot tell you how important that open channel of communication between Saudi Arabia and between Iran has been. I'd like to pick up on that theme of dialogue and end this interview with some general reflections looking back on your diplomatic career, mediation today. Saudi Arabia's role in mediation is longstanding. And as we gather here in Oslo, I can feel just watching the discussions here, the deep level of respect that other attendees here have for you, have for your country's peacemaking efforts. But have there been occasions when you felt from others a slight, maybe dare I say it, sort of Western patronizing tone when talking about Saudi mediation? Manal Radwan (32:46) Yes. And I think it's also partly because we don't maybe do a good job in explaining the role that we do. And sometimes also what we do in mediation or facilitation is behind the scenes, and it's not very much known. But also there is a new trend now that mediators now become party to the conflict, and they become also evaluated on the results of the mediation. This was not the case a decade ago or more, and now the mediators or the mediation itself becomes a target if it's not going the way in which some parties expect. So it's an important reflection. I think it's a joint responsibility. I think we need to remind people that we are not newcomers to mediations. We have been doing this for a very long time, since the '60s and even before. We have had very active mediation efforts in Africa, in their liberation movement and their admission to the UN. We have had many mediation efforts, including on the Palestinian issue on several aspects, the Taif Accord in Lebanon, in Libya with Lockerbie. I mean, there are many different examples of successful and sometimes not so successful. Adam Cooper (34:12) And when we look across the Middle East, there's so many conflicts that have persisted and feel almost immune to resolution despite efforts from many countries over many years. And I've heard you say that you hate the word process. Why is that? Manal Radwan (34:31) Because process becomes the issue, you know, and we forget about the end goal. So the point becomes how many meetings, what do we do with the meetings, the mechanism to get to a resolution becomes the issue and not the resolution itself. So, and I think this was also a motivating factor behind shying away from using the word process in any of our discussions on the Palestinian issue, for example, and focusing on the word implementation. We already know what it takes to resolve this. We have already decided as an international community that it is the 2-state solution, for example. Okay, let's talk about implementation so that we are not just talking about a long, you know, open-ended process. Adam Cooper (35:19) Yeah, process for the sake of it. Manal Radwan (35:20) For the sake of it, and also it sometimes is a smokescreen and sometimes is a way in which people can dodge responsibility. Because they think that there is a process. And so, okay, we are going to wait for this process to bring us to a resolution, as if the process by itself is the solution. Adam Cooper (35:40) I'd like to ask a last question, Manal, and come back to something you said at the beginning, which is that you were faced with a choice of being a scientist or a diplomat, and that you thought, okay, if I'm a scientist, I can create something. And I wonder whether in your diplomatic career you found the opportunity to be creative, to invent things in the field of diplomacy. And you're a very humble person by nature. You give credit to many others. But I'm wondering if you were to think ahead, I don't know, 10, 20 years from now, what would you like to be remembered for creating? Manal Radwan (36:18) Look, I have been very lucky to be working in the Foreign Ministry and with the leadership giving space for young leaders to really help and assist and offer their contributions. So I'm very lucky in that aspect that the, you know, the sky is the limit and possibilities are just endless and the support is immense. So that itself translates to me personally as a responsibility. So every day I have to always think of what can I do, what can I contribute in a very small, minute way, but anything that I can. So I think supporting the Foreign Ministry, supporting Saudi Arabia's foreign policy with the leadership of Prince Faisal, our Foreign Minister, really is a huge responsibility. I really hope that whatever small role that I can contribute to a region that is more peaceful, a region that is more prosperous, a redefinition of security where it is an interdependent security, it is the security of all, to bring back that diplomacy is about finding the humanity in others that is It's about recognizing the needs for security, for dignity, for prosperity that is not just one's needs but also the other, what we see as an adversary or the other, whether redefining what the other is, in a way that is mutually beneficial, I think is extremely important. Manal Radwan (38:04) And this is true whether it is vis-à-vis the Iranian file, whether it it is vis-à-vis Palestine-Israel, whether it is on Sudan, whether it is in any of these major challenges that the region faces. I think that the region is really at a turning point, and I think the possibilities for transformation are endless. And I will not want to remiss by not emphasizing also the importance of partnership with our European colleagues and the partnership between the region and Europe is extremely important. And also the strategic relationship with global powers, because we see that the global system is changing right in front of our eyes. So we don't want to be passive observers, but we want to contribute as co-creators for this more peaceful, more beneficial system that serves us all in a better way. And this is not to be taken for granted because things can get a lot worse before they can get better. Adam Cooper (39:16) On that hopeful note, there we must end. Manal Radwan, thank you so much for being my guest in The Mediator's Studio. Manal Radwan (39:23) Thank you. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Adam Cooper (39:31) That's it for this edition of The Mediator's Studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We always love to hear from you, so if Manal's work has resonated with you, please get in touch via the listener survey in the show notes on our website, or do drop me a message on X @AdamTalksPeace. The Mediator's Studio is an Oslo Forum podcast brought to you by the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue, and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our managing editor is Christina Buchhold, and the producer is Chris Gunness. The output editor is Ly Buiduong. Research for this episode was by Oscar Eschenbrenner. Thank you to Ranwa El-Kikhia for her support and edits. Hope you'll join me for the next edition. Until then, from Losby Gods in Norway, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye and thank you for listening.