Uhuru Kenyatta on using coffee breaks to advance mediation

Automatically transcribed Uhuru Kenyatta The big problem here, is not reaching a deal. The big problem is in the implementation of a deal. That's where the challenges lie. The sad part sometimes about mediation is that we are all there, we have signed Pretoria, Hey, well done, well done, well done. We are clapping each other on the back. We're all pals again. And then everybody disappears. We had so many commitments from different partners who were going to support that. So yes, we have a Pretoria Agreement, but it is not fully implemented. And Again, because it's not fully implemented, because you still haven't dealt with the fundamental issues, tensions begin to rise again. [00:00:01.100] - Adam Cooper Welcome to the Mediator's Studio, a podcast about Peacemakers, bringing you stories from behind the scenes. I'm your host, Adam Cooper. I'm at the Oslo Forum, where some of the world's leading figures in peacemaking have come to discuss resolving conflicts from Gaza to Ukraine, Myanmar, Syria, Sudan, and beyond. My guest today was the fourth President of Kenya and the son of its first. He's also a mediator with long experience of dealing with conflict in Africa. He currently serves in two mediation roles, facilitator of the East African Community-led Process in the Restoration of Peace and Stability in the Eastern Congo, and a member of the African Union's High-Level Panel for the Ethiopian Peace Process. He was also involved in peace efforts in the region during his mandate, and until now. President Uhuru Kenyatta, welcome to the Mediator's Studio. [00:00:54.400] - Uhuru Kenyatta Thank you. Pleasure to be with you. [00:00:56.120] - Adam Cooper Let's start with your early years and the experiences that gave your values and shaped you as a peacemaker. You were born in 1961, just three years before the Declaration of the Republic of Kenya and the end of British Colonial Rule. Your father, Jomo Kenyatta, was the country's first President, playing a major role in the independence movement. In the years before independence, your father travelled widely, made personal contact with anti-imperial groups all over the world. So tell me, what was it like being a child in the Kenyatta household in the early years of independence? [00:01:31.520] - Uhuru Kenyatta It was a childhood like any other, because if there's one thing he never brought into the homestead, it was his politics. It was also a childhood with a difference, given the fact that as much as he didn't engage us, we were also there to see him hosting different delegations, different leaders from across the globe. One of the things that I cherish most actually about growing up in that household is because unlike many other households where the people around you are all from your area, we had the opportunity to grow up with people from different parts of the country because they were either working as part of the staff of the Statehouse. We got to meet people from other parts of the world. In a way, that ingrained a spirit, let's say, of seeing everybody as the same [00:03:14.390] - Adam Cooper It's must have been a pretty diverse collection of people. Is there anyone who pass through the house who you remember and that inspired you? [00:03:24.780] - Uhuru Kenyatta One of those was Emperor Haile Selassie. He was one who was somebody we truly remember because unlike other heads of state, his friendship with my father was such that whenever he visited, he stayed with us. He was somebody I would meet in the morning going to school, and somebody I would meet having dinner together in the evening, given the fact that he was one and the only head of state who my father would host in his home. [00:04:04.010] - Adam Cooper What was going through your head? Do you think “Oh, that sounds appealing. I'd quite like to be an Emperor or President myself one day”? [00:04:15.080] - Uhuru Kenyatta His Majesty was, Have you done your homework? It was very casual, a boy talking to his uncle. It made you feel at ease with the high and mighty. But at the same time, you were also able when you went to school, because one thing my father insisted was that we would go to normal school, Like everybody else, we weren't in our early days, we were educated in local schools, so we had the capacity also then to also engage with our peers from across the country. So it was a childhood, like any other, but there were those moments where you had some wow moments, so to say. [00:05:22.760] - Adam Cooper Your parents named you Uhuru, which means freedom in Swahili. You were the elder of two boys with two sisters in a highly political home. Did your name feel like a mantle, a political aspiration on your young shoulders? [00:05:37.460] - Uhuru Kenyatta We had the freedom to choose. One of my sisters, pursued education. She was an educationalist for children with special needs. That was her chosen career path, and she followed it, and that was her life. I had another sibling who was more interested in business, and he pursued it and successfully. I chose politics, but not because of any expectations or any demands or any insistence. It was a passion from a very, very early, early age. [00:06:33.720] - Adam Cooper You go off to university, you study economics and political science. That's correct. On your return, you go into business, amongst other things, running the family's extensive holdings. What did that experience teach you, particularly about the confluence of finance and politics? [00:06:51.160] - Uhuru Kenyatta Well, let's put it this way. The understanding that first and foremost, politics is critical if you are going to create an enabling environment for business to succeed or prosper. If the politics is wrong, the economics are wrong. But also a very clear understanding that economics should also not dominate politics because There are certain factors and elements that economics alone doesn't do. Social justice cannot just be achieved through pure economics. You need to be able to have a balance between the two. That's one thing I must admit I learned from my father, that there has to be a balance between business interests, national interests, social interests, because those were key to his thinking. [00:08:08.060] - Adam Cooper Let's talk about your entry into politics. In 1997, you stand for Parliament as a KANU candidate. Uhuru Kenyatta Yes. Adam Cooper Party of your father, however, unsuccessful. President Moi, who became President after the death of your father in 1978, then has you appointed to your first public office, and you hold a series of positions before being nominated to a parliamentary seat. You took part in a highly contested elections in 2002 and 2007, and notably the December 2007 election was followed by violence killed more than a thousand people. That violence was so worrying that it prompted mediation by Kofi Annan, who gathered together, different groups to negotiate in the Serena Hotel in Nairobi. Tell me about that period. [00:08:53.080] - Uhuru Kenyatta That was probably one of the most difficult periods of my life because here we are in a scenario where there has been political competition. I was not a candidate, so President at the time, I was supporting one candidate. But the divisions in the country were such that with a very closely contested election, violence, unfortunately, broke out. It was the first time that Kenya had seen violence on that scale. A lot of people lost life. A lot of property was destroyed. A lot of lives destroyed as a result of that violence. I think this was my first interaction now with mediation. That's when we had Kofi Anan coming in at the same time, together with people like John Kufuor, who was then President of Ghana, who came in as the head of the African Union at the time. Then we also had President Kikwete of Tanzania, who also came in. So, all these different facilitators just came in at that particular moment to try and find a solution to end both the violence, but also to get a way forward for Kenya. [00:10:44.860] - Uhuru Kenyatta The talks were largely going around the two principals at the time, which were Raila Odinga and Mwai Kibaki, who were the two protagonists, the two competitors. But we now got involved later in when it came to issues of how one would form government, what are the issues that needed to be dealt with. But for me personally, it was also a very trying time because I felt myself a victim of all of that because what ended up happening is there was this thing that there must be people who take responsibility for the violence that had occurred. Unfortunately, for some of us, I think we were sacrificed on the altar of equal responsibility. So, they went up and just picked three people who were prominent on one side, and they picked three people who were prominent on the other side. No investigations done, no processes done. That's why regardless of what happens, I decided I was going to see the process through from beginning to end because I was determined that I want my innocence proved through the process they themselves elected and chose. [00:12:43.310] - Adam Cooper Exactly. As you said, you faced an investigation, along with others, from the International Criminal Court, the ICC, in relation to that post-election violence. However, the ICC dropped the charges against you in December 2014. [00:12:57.680] - Uhuru Kenyatta No, they didn't drop. I want to be very clear. They didn't drop. They ended up clearing and saying that there was no charge that was against me. It was not that charges were dropped. We went through the entire legal process and we were declared that we had no case to answer. There was no evidence to support the case that had been put before us. [00:13:34.060] - Adam Cooper That was then cleared. In 2008, you joined the coalition government that was agreed as a result of the negotiations, served as Deputy Prime Minister until your election as President in 2013. [00:13:47.360] - Uhuru Kenyatta But the most important thing that you need to note there is that the case, even when I joined government, the case at the International Criminal Court was still going on. Even when I was President, I still had that case. Because I insisted I had to see it through. In the last session that I had to attend, I had to attend as President. I purposely stepped down from office, left the office with my deputy, left as a citizen. Because I believe that the process was there, let it reach its logical conclusion. That is precisely what happened. Came back, cleared, and resumed my position. I don't think anybody has ever done that in this world. [00:14:50.540] - Adam Cooper Why do you think, though, that Kenya, amongst other countries, continues to have cycles of violence around elections? Most importantly, looking ahead to the future, how could that be avoided in future elections? [00:15:07.720] - Uhuru Kenyatta This is part and parcel of why I am very keen about what I do. Because what is abundantly clear is that these situations arise out of long-held either grievances or issues that remain unresolved. For a long time, and that's probably part of the problem, Kenya had been governed in a certain way from independence. Yes, one party rule was a great thing at the time, but it had run its course and there was need for revival. So yes, we then moved to multipartism. But the institutions were still the old institutions of a one-party state. What I think I recognise is the fact that unless we are constantly renewing ourselves, unless we are constantly engaged in seeing what are the new issues of the day? Unless we are in a position where we are constantly consulting, we need to be able to change these systems. Therefore, we need to be able to engage and talk to one another if we are to prevent future cycles of violence. That's how we moved, for example, from Kenya, from a very centralised form of government to the kind of devolved government system that we have today. That came out of mediation. That came out of people talking to each other. [00:17:07.040] - Adam Cooper You mentioned the importance of dialogue. Let's fast forward to when you become president in 2013, a position in which you served until 2022, and you've been involved in many mediation efforts which we'll talk about today. But tell me about your very first as president. [00:17:23.320] - Uhuru Kenyatta I think my very first was when we had an issue with Uganda and Rwanda, and they had closed their mutual border. I was, at that stage, involved in trying to mediate between, at the time, President Kagame and President Museveni on the issues that surrounded the border closure. I was busy, hopscoach from Kigali to Kampala and back again, basically just trying to put the two parties together to resolve the problem that had led to that border closure, that closure of trade, movement of people. [00:18:20.740] - Adam Cooper It's a problem you saw close up. [00:18:23.340] - Uhuru Kenyatta Very close up. I would say that that was my first true engagement at mediation. [00:18:49.080] - Adam Cooper Later on, you become deeply involved in the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC. When you became President in 2013, the DRC is still reeling from the impact of years of war, widely described as the deadliest conflict since the Second World War. President Joseph Kabila was able to restore relative stability, but fighting continued in the east of the country at a lower level. In March 2013, as we heard, you became President, and that month, the UN Security Council mandates a UN force to neutralise arm groups in the DRC. At that time, Kenya was playing a crucial role in a peace agreement between the DRC government and rebels of the Mouvement de 23 mars or M23. An agreement was signed in Nairobi in December 2013, in which President Museveni of Uganda played a leading role in. What were your feelings about how that agreement could best work? [00:19:45.060] - Uhuru Kenyatta That was the foundational agreement. Even everything that we have done since then was based basically on that. The problem was that a lot of the issues that had been agreed upon were never truly implemented. That is why a few years down the road, the problem reignited. At that time, I was serving as the chair of the East African community. Prior to that, we were having regular meetings, especially to see how we could improve trade, how we could improve on telecoms, you know all the issues pertaining to having a common market and easing facilitation or movement of goods and people and services and so on. It was at that time we came up with the idea to bring DRC on board and make them members of the East African community, given the fact that a very large part of their country, which is the Eastern part, has very close social, cultural, economic ties with East Africa already. [00:21:46.800] - Uhuru Kenyatta And maybe by so doing, be able to ease some of these tensions that consistently come up. [00:21:55.580] - Adam Cooper I'm curious. It's a strategy of regional integration. How did you actually go about achieving that goal of having them formally included in the East African Community, the EAC? [00:22:08.440] - Uhuru Kenyatta At that time, President Tshisekedi had just been elected President of the DRC. After the initial stages when we could see this conflict was flaring up again, I approached him and I told him, Look, Let's look at the realities on the ground. The realities on the ground is that there is a lot of commonality between the people of these regions. Maybe if we could get this regional integration going, it may, in many instances, reduce the tensions that we see. It would help probably better stabilise the economic engagements that we have as countries, which again would further reduce and ease tensions. He was agreeable, at which stage then I approached other community leaders, namely at that time Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi, and Tanzania. They concurred. In fact, not only did they concur, they thought that we should fast track the ascension. The ascension of DRC was one of the fastest, because we fast tracked the whole process, because I think they all saw the ultimate benefit of bringing Congo closer to the region. [00:23:53.320] - Adam Cooper That happened in March 2022. The next month in April, we see the rolling out of the so-called Nairobi process in which Kenya hosted talks with representatives of more than 30 armed groups in the DRC. [00:24:13.240] - Adam Cooper This is conducted in parallel with the so-called Luanda Process, which focuses on dialogue between the DRC and Rwandan government. Uhuru Kenyatta That’s correct. Adam Cooper What were you trying to achieve with the first meeting of the Nairobi Process in April 2022? [00:24:27.960] - Uhuru Kenyatta I think what we had wanted to do at that stage, again, similar to what we were trying to do with trade and movement of persons between the East African countries, we also recognised, that there were also communities and groupings, some of these armed groups that felt neglected or felt that they were not part and parcel of the governance structures of the DRC because of distance, poor infrastructure, and et cetera. We felt that there was need at that stage to try and help our brothers and sisters in Congo to facilitate them, to to engage with their own. So yes, country to country talks, DRC with Rwanda. But more importantly also within the Congo, having different groups being able to talk to each other and through dialogue, find a resolution as opposed through the use of weapons, find a way forward to have the feeling of inclusivity. [00:26:01.880] - Adam Cooper Did it feel at the time like it was a repeat of an old conversation or that you were really bridging and helping to make new connexions between them? [00:26:11.980] - Uhuru Kenyatta In all honesty, it felt like for the very first time, we were actually, for me, the first real effort where we were saying there are no conditions, and I gave President Tshisekedi credit for that. No conditions. People come through. Everybody is welcome to the dialogue. That's why I said Nairobi 1, M23, by the way, were also at that meeting. The whole purpose was to establish what are these genuine grievances. What we were trying to do is to compile and to see how we can put all of this together as issues through some national conference the DRC would be able to address themselves to that would create a much more inclusive governance in some of these regions, thereby reducing tensions. When we went through them, and the most amazing thing is those issues that they raise in 2022 are the same issues they still raise today. [00:27:34.720] - Adam Cooper How does that make you reflect then on the success and limitations of that process, the fact that those issues are still on the table today? [00:27:43.520] - Uhuru Kenyatta The one big problem we have, is that somehow something always happens, either just before or just after you sign, that derails the process. Then instead of learning from the mistakes that we've done, we then want to enter into a new negotiation as if the ones that occurred yesterday never happened. Some of the issues that we were tackling when I was given this role in DRC are issues that people have raised for many years. I can give one perfect example. During the discussions that we were having, I befriended a Catholic priest, when he was in Nairobi, coffee break, tea break, lunch break, somehow we always were galvanic, pulling either on the same table, chatting and engaging and very happy with each other. We did that in our meetings, two, three meetings that we had in Nairobi, one meeting that we held in Goma. [00:29:36.840] - Uhuru Kenyatta But that same priest, when we convened in Kinshasa, I bumped into him and he was very solemn and in fact, I thought, did I say something or did I do something to you? Why are you shunning me, ignoring me? Is there something I've said that has upset you? He says, No, No, No, it's got nothing to do with you. It's just that I, a learned man, been through to seminary. I've gotten all the education. I've travelled all over East Africa. I've travelled to Rome. I've travelled to many parts of the world. But here I am, a Congolese, and this is my first visit to my capital. I have never I've been here. That is what is going on through my mind right now. How can I know the rest of the world? But I don't know my own capital. What about that poor peasant in the rural area? How does he feel and how well connected is he to his government? If this exposed, experienced person feels no connexion, what about that? In their own country. What about the rural peasant who has probably never left his village or township? What does he feel? [00:31:15.220] - Adam Cooper That cohesive nation. In April 2022, you also make an important decision for Kenya by sending Kenyan soldiers to lead a deployment of military force of the EAC to support peace efforts. In in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Did that feel like a high-stakes decision at the time? [00:31:36.500] - Uhuru Kenyatta Yes, indeed, it did. It was not a decision we took lightly, but we felt that there was need for us as neighbours to play a role in trying to stabilise the security situation. At that stage, we had the confidence of both the Congolese government, the Rwandan government, M23, and the other armed groups that Kenya could be a neutral force that would stay there and act as a buffer while negotiations and talks were ongoing. Indeed, we were very successful in that endeavour until such time. At that stage, I was no longer Commander-in-Chief, so I would be wrong to comment as to what the background was or what happened. That led to DRC, thereafter wanting the removal of what was not a Kenyan force, by the way, it was an East African force, and its replacement with a SADC force. [00:32:57.360] - Adam Cooper Yes, this is from the Southern African Development Community That's right. When that replacement happened, how did you react to that change? [00:33:06.700] - Uhuru Kenyatta To say the very least, I was disappointed because, of course, I thought that the force that was there was doing a good job. But at that stage, like I'm saying, I was no longer head of state. I felt that if now the confidence in the East African force was no longer there, it was their right to replace it with another force. [00:34:01.440] - Adam Cooper It wasn't an easy period because at a similar time, the Serena Hotel in Nairobi, Corneille Nanga, announced as a creation of the Politico military group, Alliance Fleuve Congo, which comprises M23 and other Congolese arm groups seeking to overthrow the DRC government. Where were you when you heard about it? What was your reaction? [00:34:23.200] - Uhuru Kenyatta Well, I really don't want to comment about that because those who took that decision to have that session. It had its repercussions elsewhere. That was that. But as far as I am concerned, it does not take away from what I was stating earlier, that what Congo needs is an inclusive dialogue that deals with the issues of inclusion, that deals with the issue of infrastructure development that makes people feel left out, that deals with the issues of social and economic justice, that deals the issue of how wealth in that country is shared so that it has impact, not just in one part of the country or in other countries, but it impacts and uplifts the lives of the Congolese. Until those issues are addressed, changing one government to another government is not what is the solution. Either violently or democratically, what Congo needs is an in-depth discussion with itself about how they wish to govern themselves as a people. That is the process that some of us were very keen to facilitate and mediate. [00:36:15.300] - Adam Cooper I want to ask you about the diplomacy that's going on today about that. Looking at the situation today, there's a flurry of diplomatic activity on the DRC at the moment. In April 2025, direct negotiations between the DRC and the M23 took place in Qatar, and also between DRC and Rwanda governments in the US. What are your feelings about the role of Qatar and the US compared to African-led solutions? [00:37:15.960] - Uhuru Kenyatta I support all mediation, all facilitation that helps resolve this crisis. So for me, it is not a question of where or who. For me, the question is what. What are we dealing with? Are we dealing with the issues that will ultimately bring lasting peace and stability to the Congo. Or are we, like I'm saying, just changing our outfits? Today, it's the African Union, tomorrow it's Qatar, tomorrow it's another country, tomorrow it's another country. But if what we are talking about is dealing with the substantive issues that have led to millions living in misery being resolved, Let it be held whenever. [00:38:17.600] - Adam Cooper From what you observe, do you think that those processes are dealing with those core substantive issues of the conflict? [00:38:25.420] - Uhuru Kenyatta I still think that somehow we still need to address with those core issues. We can say that we have peace, fine. We can say that we have a ceasefire. We can say maybe we have agreed withdrawal and all of that. But until we resolve the deeper issues, we haven't solved the problem. [00:38:53.940] - Adam Cooper If we just think about what your approach is, and as part of the African Union Panel with four other former heads of state, amidst that diplomatic landscape of what I described, and given what you said about the need to address those deep core issues, what is your strategy to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past where, for honest, many of the agreements that have concerned the DRC haven't either addressed those core issues, or to the extent that they have on paper, it hasn't been implemented in practice. So what does a better peace vision look like? [00:39:30.000] - Uhuru Kenyatta What I advocate, and what I have been advocating, is for mediation to work, first and foremost, all of us must read from the same page. There cannot be, on the same subject, talks going on in 10 different rooms. If we are to succeed, we need the 10 rooms to converge into one. [00:40:09.980] - Uhuru Kenyatta I don't mind where it all happens. But you need everybody to be on the same page. Where is not an issue to me. But what is being discussed, that is the issue that is of concern. Because that is where the solution to lasting peace lies. [00:41:50.500] - Adam Cooper Let's turn to another conflict where working together with others, you helped to bring the parties together in one room. That's your role on the high level, African Union Union Panel for the Ethiopian Peace Process. You sat on it with former Nigerian President Obasanjo and the former vice President of South Africa, Phumzile Mlambo-Ngcukaa. In 2020, Tigray held regional elections in defiance of the Ethiopian government, following attack on federal army camps by the TPLF, the Tigray People's Liberation Front. The federal government of Ethiopia sent troops to Tigray. It was the start of a devastating war last said until November 2022, you took up your role as a mediator in 2022 after the Tigrayans announced their readiness to participate in peace talks led by the AU and to observe an immediate ceasefire. And you were in Pretoria in South Africa for peace negotiations in November of that year. What was your personal diplomatic approach in these negotiations to help build trust between the parties? [00:42:57.660] - Uhuru Kenyatta I was familiar with all the parties. I was quite familiar with the Tigrayan leadership because many of them had been in office previously and I had engaged them, encountered them, not just as President, but even in my different roles in government before. I was also very familiar with the government side. So knowledge of the actors helped me a lot. I was able to build a level of trust with both sides. Despite the fact that negotiations were long and hard, our ability to be able to maintain the confidences of both parties and their ability to be able to pull back when we are in close session from the very hard line stance that they take across the table. [00:44:39.750] - Adam Cooper This is the moment that I'm interested in, in what helps to unlock it when someone's taking a hard stance and how, you know, just bring us into the room for a minute about things that you did to help unlock that. [00:44:55.100] - Uhuru Kenyatta For example, we would leave the room where you have the federal government on one side, you have TPLF on the other side, formal engagement, where the mediators and facilitators sitting up in the middle. There they put their harsh stance, and everybody is fighting from their corner. Then, as we were discussing when we were having our pictures taken outside there. There is, Joe, why don't we meet somewhere for a cup of coffee? Peter, why don't we meet somewhere for a cup of coffee? [00:45:53.420] - Uhuru Kenyatta Could be anything. A cheese sandwich. Yes We know each other. What's the problem? Then you start now finding people now, they're no longer posturing. They begin not talking at each other, but talking with each other. It's still part of the official negotiation. Why don't you talk to your team and see whether when we have the formal meeting tomorrow, this one can be put as a request from your side, and this side will agree, and you can put this as a request, the other side will agree. We moved a step forward and continued, and we proceeded like that for about two weeks. At the end of the day, we succeeded. And again, what was also useful to me was that I was able to speak to the Prime Minister directly and tell him, Look, why can't you help here? [00:47:45.670] - Adam Cooper Using your personal relationships. [00:47:47.820] - Uhuru Kenyatta Yes. On the other side, I was able to speak to Gebremichael, the TPLF leader, and talk to him directly and say, And that also helped unlocking maybe certain things that we were not able to unlock in the formal room. [00:48:08.950] - Adam Cooper As you said, the agreement was signed. But if we look ahead now to where things stand today, the peace process is under real stress. Some fear return to conflict. Are you concerned that those who supported the agreement are walking away from it? [00:48:26.740] - Uhuru Kenyatta The big problem here, is not reaching a deal. The big problem is in the implementation of a deal. That's where the challenges lie. The sad part sometimes about mediation is that we are all there, we have signed Pretoria, Hey, well done, well done, well done. We are clapping each other on the back. Yeah, you've done a grand job. [00:50:07.230] - Uhuru Kenyatta We're all pals again. Then everybody disappears. We had so many commitments from different partners who were going to support that, but they all, everybody just disappeared. So yes, we have a Pretoria Agreement, but it is not fully implemented. And again, because it's not fully implemented, because you still haven't dealt with the fundamental issues, tensions begin to rise again. I think we have both the responsibility to make the peace deal, but we have a greater responsibility. That's not just about the protagonists. It's also about the partners in that process to ensure we implement these agreements. And our partnership with them shouldn't end at the point of signing. It should end at the point of full implementation of the agreement. [00:56:56.300] - Adam Cooper I'd like ask a generational question in Kenya we’ve seen the rise of Gen Z as a political force, as we’ve seen in other countries, such as the protests they led against tax rises in 2023 and 2024 in Kenya. And you see the same dynamics at play in other countries with the younger generations demanding a seat at the table. Do you think that older generations of politicians and mediators, need to take their voices more seriously? I hope you don't take that personally. [00:57:27.560] - Uhuru Kenyatta No, not at all. In fact, I encourage. I encourage them to take their seat at the table. I encourage them to bring their vigour, their knowledge, their determination to the table, as I was mentioning to you earlier. If it wasn't for the vigour, the energy of the youthful generations of the '40s and '50s, Africa would still be under the rule of the former colonial masters. Equally, if it is the vigour of these Gen Zs and others that will bring true social justice, economic empowerment, addressing ourselves to historical injustices, and all the issues that cause conflict, I encourage them, I support them. Come train and take over from me tomorrow. [00:58:34.840] - Adam Cooper Okay, this is the granddaddy of politics and mediation passing on the baton. [00:58:38.790] - Uhuru Kenyatta Absolutely. [00:58:40.100] - Adam Cooper Well, on that note, looking ahead to the future, we must end. Uhuru Kenyatta, thank you so much for being my guests in the Mediator's Studio. [00:58:47.150] - Uhuru Kenyatta Thank you so very much. [00:58:50.100] - Adam Cooper Thank you. Adam Cooper That's it for this edition of the Mediator Studio. To get more episodes as they come out, please subscribe wherever you get your podcast. We always love to hear from you. So if Uhuru Kenyatta's work in Africa or what he had to say about Gen Z resonated with you, please get in touch via the listener survey and the show notes on our website. Or do drop me a message on Twitter at Adam Talks Peace. The Mediator Studio is an Oslo Forum podcast brought to you by the Centre for Humanitarian Dialogue and the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Our managing editor is Christina Buchhold and the producer is Chris Gunness. Research for this episode was by Oscar Eschenbremer. Big thanks also to Ly Buiduong for her support. Hope you'll join me for the next edition. Until then, from Losby God's in Norway, this is Adam Cooper saying goodbye and thank you for listening.